"You'll miss me yet": Interview with Marwan Barghouti
MARWAN BARGHOUTI and BEN CASPIT
Ma’ariv, 9 November 2001
He moves carefully between various apartment hideaways. He doesn't answer the telephone. He doesn't go anywhere near IDF roadblocks. He doesn't get into unfamiliar cars. He is unshaven and restless. Marwan Barghouti, one of the pioneers of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, and who became a symbol of this war, is running for his life.
On Wednesday, in Ramallah, several hours after the clanking of Israeli tank treads fell silent, he arrives at an agreed-upon meeting place in the city. He drinks black coffee, doesn't touch the shwarma. He is bleary-eyed, hoarse, he reeks of fear, but keeps his sense of humor and his optimism. One missile already exploded near him. Barghouti is afraid that the next one is already on the way.
"Assassinate me, so what," he says, "You'll miss me yet. The Intifada will continue. There is a saying, nothing stands in the way of the will. Our will is strong, and you will not break us." [...]
Q: Do you take into account that you will be ultimately assassinated?
"Yes. It disappoints me that no one on your side is coming out against this policy of assassinations. I know that the struggle will continue. This coming year will be very difficult. You will increase the pressure on us. Sharon has no plan. He just pulled out his last card: he entered and recaptured the Palestinian cities. And what happened? Did the tanks in Bethlehem stop the attacks in French Hill? Did the tanks in Nablus stop the attackers in Hadera? Our challenge is to prove to you that there will be no security without peace. Only an agreement, and nothing else. You elected a prime minister who represents, more than anything else, killing, war and murder, and he has no solution. So we will continue our struggle, until you understand. We have much more willpower. Go ahead and keep assassinating. You've assassinated so many people already and you haven't prevented anything."
Q: And one of those assassinated could be you.
"Maybe me as well. But I am committed to continuing. I am a representative of the public, and I am carrying out the will of the people. [...] I go to all of the funerals, to all of the demonstrations. I listen to people. My problem is that I'm not a politician. I speak to the point, I tell the truth to your face. On our side as well, as on yours. In all those years you spoke with all kinds of Palestinian representatives who misled you, who let you believe that it was possible to reach a solution without ending the occupation."
Q: What is your solution for ending the current situation?
"It's simple: You must understand, once and for all, that you must end the occupation. You must announce that the occupation is over and that Israel is leaving the territories. Present a timetable of a month, six months, a year. The important thing is that you present a timetable for withdrawal from all of the territories and the dismantling of the settlements, and announce that you recognize an independent Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem. Believe me, such an announcement on the part of Israel will change the situation from top to bottom. Everything will work out. Everything. I have no doubt of that."
Q: And the refugees? What about the refugees? You lost the support of the peace camp when you went back to the right of return.
"A solution must be found for the refugee problem. I believe that such a solution will be found. The moment you announce the end of the occupation and recognize a sovereign, genuine Palestinian state, not a vassal state, at that very moment everything will change. It will be possible to solve the refugee problem as well, believe me. I mean it."
Marwan Barghouti, 42 years old. Born on June 5, 1960, exactly seven years before the outbreak of the Six Day War. He spent six years in Israeli prisons. He was among the founders of the Shabiba, the Fatah youth in the territories, and was a student leader. He is a graduate of Bir Zeit University, with a degree in history and political science. He was born in a village near Ramallah. OC Central Command Amnon Lipkin-Shahak placed him under house arrest. OC Central Command Ehud Barak banished him from the territories. He orchestrated activities in the first Intifada from his exile in Jordan. He is a member of the PLO Revolutionary Council. He was elected to the Palestinian Legislative Council in 1999. He serves as the leader of the Tanzim in the West Bank (or at least in part of it.) He was on the Temple Mount the morning that Ariel Sharon made his visit there. Since the beginning of the current Intifada, he has become the symbol of the armed and violent struggle against Israel. He ate away at the status of Dahlan, Rajoub, and Abu-Mazen. He respects Abu Ala. He is considered by the Israeli security establishment to be someone who "labeled himself a military leader." At this stage (as of Tuesday this week) he is not a target for immediate assassination, but according to an Israeli security source, "This situation will not continue forever." The security establishment has concrete information proving that Barghouti is "dispatching" terror attacks. His hands, according to Israel, are stained with blood.
"He fears for his life," said a security source this week, "and with fairly good reason." Meanwhile, as has been noted, Barghouti is a symbol. Shimon Peres said recently in a private conversation that he speaks with Abu Mazen, Abu Ala, Erekat and all the rest, but that in the end, what happens is whatever Barghouti says on television. [...] Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer has already demanded his head, on more than a few occasions. The GSS director and other officials were opposed. [...]
Meanwhile, he is running. He lives underground, moves on the fringe, hides. He speaks fluent Hebrew, jokes, and remembers for a moment those good old days when he was one of the pioneers of dialogue with Israelis, when they spoke of peace, of a vision, of a dream. Today he stands at the head of the war.
Q: Yossi Beilin says that you are causing vast damage. Your friends on the Israeli Left are asking, "what happened to Marwan?" How do you answer them?
"Nothing happened to me. As usual, you are asking the opposite questions and are seeing everything through your glasses. I was one of the bravest peace pioneers. I fought in the streets for Oslo. The problem is that since Rabin's assassination there hasn't been a peace process. I don't know what would have happened had Rabin not been murdered, but I know what happened after the murder. The whole of Israel society changed direction. The process stopped. You didn't leave us any choice."
Q: If Rabin had known in 1993 that you would come in 1999 and demand the right of return, he would have thrown you down the stairs.
"You're back to that again? Put an end to this mentality of occupation mixed with panic. What are you so afraid of? Between 1967 and 1993 you built 25,000 apartments in the territories. Between 1993, after Oslo, and 2000, you built another 23,000 apartments in the territories. Had we known that this is what was going to happen, we also wouldn't have started this process."
Q: You have a degree in history. Did they teach you at Bir Zeit about the Holocaust, for example?
"Of course. I know all of your history. But the Holocaust of the Jewish people does not justify our disaster. There is a refugee problem and it must be solved. Ways can be found. This is the most important point for Palestinians. The truth must be told. We reached a historic decision to recognize Israel, its security, its legitimacy. You still haven't reached your own decision to recognize us and our rights."
Q: You recognize Israel, but the right of return will destroy it, and it won't be a Jewish state. "We recognize Israel as a Jewish state. On the other hand, there is UN Resolution 194 and on the basis of that resolution it is possible to reach a solution that will satisfy everyone. I tell you again: If tomorrow a government arises in Israel and declares the end of the occupation, announces a timetable for withdrawal from the territories, and supports the establishment of a Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem, everything will be solved. The situation on the ground will also change overnight."
Q: There was a government like that, not long ago. Barak agreed to give you the vast majority of the land and a large part of Jerusalem, and you responded with blood and fire.
"Once again, your are both mistaken and misleading. We agreed to make do with 22% of historic Palestine. At Camp David you tried to take from this small portion an enclave here, a bloc there, the Jordan Valley, border crossings, Jerusalem. This is a state? This is a solution? This is justice? I'm telling you the truth. You have to count on people like me, not on the hypocrites. I belong to the people, to the masses. We go around among the people, we are real, we are not corrupt."
Q: Still, Barak's proposal could have been the basis for discussions, not for war. Oslo is based on the idea that your rifles are meant to keep order and fight terror, not shoot at us.
"But Oslo died with Rabin. How would you feel if on every hill in territory that belongs to you a new settlement would spring up? If your best friends, with whom you fought shoulder to shoulder, continue to rot in jail? I reached a simple conclusion. You don't want to end the occupation and you don't want to stop the settlements, so the only way to convince you is by force. This is the Intifada of peace. I'm serious. This Intifada will lead to peace in the end. We need to escalate the conflict. It will be hard. Many of us will be killed, but there is no choice. Every one of us is willing to sacrifice himself. We have decided that Sharon will not bring you security, and we have succeeded. It's been 274 days since he was elected, and what has happened? Is there security? No. Nothing will help. Only a just agreement, the 1967 borders, a sovereign state, Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem. This is the formula and there is no other, and no one has the right to give up on it. The Palestinian people have red lines and only the people will decide."
Q: What do you think about Arafat's status?
"Nothing. Arafat is the leader, the symbol, he decides everything. I was five years old when he began the struggle, and today I am fighting beside him and I am proud of that. Everyone supports him."
Q: And if he decides to go for a compromise and gives up on the red lines?
"He can make the decision, but I trust him to make the right decision."
Q: You speak a lot about corruption in the Palestinian Authority.
"It's true, we do have corruption, but you do too. You, as usual, exaggerate in order to attack us. The only way for us to deal with the situation is to have elections for the Palestinian parliament and the presidency."
Q: Are you planning to run for the presidency against Arafat?
"Me? Are you crazy? If Arafat runs, then no one from Fatah will run against him. And stop talking about getting rid of Arafat. He is our only leader. Only with him will you be able to make a deal. He is brave, he has already made a historic decision, he recognized Israel and its security. Now it's your turn."